Carp herpes virus - alarm bells ringing

Trout, Redfin, Salmonoids, Carp etc
Bayrock
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Re: Carp herpes virus - alarm bells ringing

Post by Bayrock » Sun May 13, 2018 12:19 pm

I think the biggest concern at this point is massive ecological damage due to enormous numbers of dead carp putrefying in waterways.
This could lead to a collapse of the australian freshwater biosphere, even to threatening fresh water supplies and agriculture, not to mention the loss of sensitive native species forever.
If this goes wrong it will make all stupid pest control decisions Australia has made in the past look rosy.

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Truedogz
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Re: Carp herpes virus - alarm bells ringing

Post by Truedogz » Sun May 13, 2018 12:37 pm

The author of this article is voicing the concerns of some vested interests, and I quote:

"Carp fisherman, Carp processing industry, Koi Farmers and all the associated aquaculture and pond industry groups are being ignored and could all be destroyed by the NCCP. Then what happens to the 40,000 or more Australian Koi Carp hobbyists with their valuable collections of carp, many of which they have spent thousands of dollars buying and have been nurturing for 30 years or more, what about them!"

The key point from the lab study quoted is not that other species died but that no evidence of replication of the virus was found. I'd have to agree the work was somewhat sloppy, but the evidence is good for the virus not infecting the species tested. They were good at testing for infection but poor at fish husbandry.

That is not to say that the people involved with the NCCP are entirely honest, in fact some very misleading statements have been released. I'll give one example. I was asked one weakness about the proposal and pointed out the virus has very limited effect on carp-goldfish hybrids. In some parts of the M-D Basin hybrids dominate as they do in some lakes in the United States. I pointed out that a consequence of the virus might simply be the increase of hybrids that are resistant with the same environmental impact as pure carp. The person I discussed this went on to ask questions at one of the carp forums. Later, NCCP in one of their media releases stated this would not be a problem as a next generation strain of the virus will eventually appear that could be used to control the hybrids. This of course totally contradicts their assurances that the virus won't mutate and affect other species - you can't have it both ways!

If you read all of the published research the evidence is that the virus is unlikely to bring the carp population down by the 70-90 % needed to improve environment health. Further, the NCCP themselves have stated that over time its effectiveness will decline as population resistance develops.

A major game changer has occurred with a carp breakthrough overseas and at this point I have no doubt that the virus should NOT be released next year. If I get time this arvo I will create a thread about it. However, I think no matter what release of the virus will happen next year even if it puts at risk a better strategy for long term control. Pretty sad.

Best Wishes

Truedogz

TheNix
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Re: Carp herpes virus - alarm bells ringing

Post by TheNix » Sun May 13, 2018 1:41 pm

If I get into the Master of Philosophy course I am look at, my thesis will be about the use of carp as a resource beyond fertiliser and animal feed. Even if these are the only options available, dead or alive - clean or infected, there are viable uses for the carp.

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Truedogz
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Re: Carp herpes virus - alarm bells ringing

Post by Truedogz » Sun May 13, 2018 2:07 pm

TheNix wrote:If I get into the Master of Philosophy course I am look at, my thesis will be about the use of carp as a resource beyond fertiliser and animal feed. Even if these are the only options available, dead or alive - clean or infected, there are viable uses for the carp.
There are many uses for carp, which are one of the most important food fish in the world. However, you are wasting your time if the focus of such a thesis is any means of harvesting carp to control them here. It has been well looked at and in most cases it is not commercially viable. Commercial harvest requires high densities of carp close to markets. We don't have a large market for the consumption of carp here and exporting them overseas is costly. Even if we did harvest them from places with very high densities, its not commercially viable to harvest them from smaller waterways where they do a lot of damage.

Carp are a big problem also in the United States and if anyone could make a profit out of controlling them it would be the yanks.

While harvesting, including angling, can have local benefits the problem is spread out over such a large area including smaller waterways that it really isn't a viable option. Its been well looked at. Pick another thesis.
Bayrock wrote:I think the biggest concern at this point is massive ecological damage due to enormous numbers of dead carp putrefying in waterways.
This could lead to a collapse of the australian freshwater biosphere, even to threatening fresh water supplies and agriculture, not to mention the loss of sensitive native species forever.
If this goes wrong it will make all stupid pest control decisions Australia has made in the past look rosy.
The impact of the kills will depend on many factors including carp density, flows, temperatures, etc. The evidence I have seen is the virus is likely to be underwhelming. Even if the thing works better than expected its not going to lead to 'massive ecological damage". Short term, localised damage quite possibly, from which the environment will recover. Comparing it to something like the cane toad is nonsense (and scientists outside of Queensland were against its introduction but were powerless to do anything).

Having said all of that I don't support release of the virus at the present time.

Best Wishes

Truedogz

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Re: Carp herpes virus - alarm bells ringing

Post by colnick » Sun May 13, 2018 2:09 pm

Good day all,
Coincidentally, the lead story on ABC TV's Landline today was about the virus. Understandably, the main opposition to the release of the virus came from vested interests - commercial carp fishers and koi carp breeders/collectors - but it seems clear that there are some genuine other concerns. The most recognised is the risk of mass carp kills rotting in shallow, closed or poorly drained waterways and causing de-oxygenation which would threaten all aquatic plants and animals. Whatever happens, collection and disposal of masses of dead carp will be a logistic problem.
After seeing the program I don't see a great risk to other species. The secondary, stronger strain is still carp specific even though it has been present in overseas waterways for long enough to mutate to affect other species if it was going to.
Hasten slowly seems to be the key. Release first in small, controllable waterways and monitor outcomes scrupulously before extending the program.
If you didn't catch the Landline program it could be worth chasing up on IView if you have access to it.

Col

TheNix
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Re: Carp herpes virus - alarm bells ringing

Post by TheNix » Sun May 13, 2018 2:26 pm

@Truedogz

True enough if you are only looking at the carp as an alternate food protein source, but carp have very good quality omega 3 and 6 fatty acids and well as bioactive amino acids that have potential use in the treatment of certain types of cancer (bowl cancer if I remember correctly). The extraction of these and other components is fairly easy on a small scale, but it does require non diseased carp though.

Edit: Why is bow(e)l being changed to bowl when I submit the post?

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Re: Carp virus

Post by colnick » Sun May 13, 2018 4:31 pm

I am impressed by the thoughts and concerns this topic has generated. Truedogz in particular has comprehensively summarised the critical factors.
There are a couple of things which should be kept in mind. If I interpret today's item on Landline correctly, there is no suggestion that there should be a single broad introduction of the virus. The need for a cautious, closely monitored release in selected, accessible locations is recognised. It is also acknowledged that, without follow-up action, populations will quickly rebuild from resistant survivors. The intention would then be to attack the smaller population of survivors with a more robust "supervirus" or by one of the gender management strategies to control or eventually eliminate successful reproduction. I favour the latter. It might take longer but has less risk of unintended consequences.

Col.

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Re: Carp herpes virus - alarm bells ringing

Post by Truedogz » Sun May 13, 2018 4:57 pm

colnick wrote: If I interpret today's item on Landline correctly, there is no suggestion that there should be a single broad introduction of the virus. The need for a cautious, closely monitored release in selected, accessible locations is recognised. It is also acknowledged that, without follow-up action, populations will quickly rebuild from resistant survivors. The intention would then be to attack the smaller population of survivors with a more robust "supervirus" or by one of the gender management strategies to control or eventually eliminate successful reproduction.
Just more bull from the spin doctors. There is no such thing as a "supervirus", and closely monitored release implies control which there will be little of - once released it will spread. At the moment the only available follow up are further releases of the virus. The virus is present in the US and the results on how it impacts are quite interesting. Appart from modelling no work to my knowledge is being done in this country on Trojan Y carp. Follow up?? More like make it up as you go and hope.

I've just posted a lot of information on the post below and said what I think should happen:

viewtopic.php?f=99&p=267623#p267623

Unfortunately when it comes to our native fish scientists/managers/officers I have a very low opinion - as do others who have dealt in this area over a long period of time. I've been lied to, and my experience is when they have an objective some of them will say whatever they need to say to achieve it.

Scientists were once held in high esteem but not these days, some are becoming overtly political (lots of liking too on facebook), healthy debate is sometimes depressed and replication of studies is far less frequent than in the past; there is evidence of declining standards. Check out the latest news story on a JCU fish research scandal.

Best Wishes

Truedogz

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Re: Carp herpes virus - alarm bells ringing

Post by Sinsemilla » Sun May 13, 2018 5:51 pm

Makes you wonder what other scientific research has been doctored..

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Re: Carp herpes virus - alarm bells ringing

Post by Texas » Sun May 13, 2018 6:03 pm

Love your work Will,
Would like to hear from professor broomstick
I myself, don't trust them.

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